Sunday, July 7, 2013

what does an iron hand finally get you?

Interesting conversation...
Shared by an acquaintance on FB..

i m looking for gr8 defenders of paid human rights & paid intellectuals
who r making a martyr out of Ishrat Jahan.... I want to ask them simple
questions: r they also paid by Pakistan or Saudi Arabia or r they
looking for some awards or recognition or funding from anti-nationals?
anti-nations have organized multiple peace marches, candle marches and
campaigned heavily in India & world... I can undoubtedly say that they
must b publicly prosecuted... no mercy.. no mercy at all... let
promoters of terrorism have first hand experience

..and so it started a comment-war... I'll name one guy A and the other B
and some others C and D. Note that all of these are totally non-violent,
ordinary, nice, pleasant folk in their regular lives.

A: And the great anti-national newspaper THE HINDU is silent over more &
more disclosures about Ishrat Jahan.. on the other hand, it was one of
the leading news paper to call Narendra Modi an enemy of humanity......
so r the promoters of terrorism

C: It is like a disease, a mental aberration, that spreads, some kind of
mood where they feel that they are modern and promoting good social
development and so on.

Yes, no mercy. In every case of such nonsense, the
[usually,"right-wing"] regimes have harrassed and detained and
"disappeared" some such "lefty" sympathisers, journalists and academics.
It has usually been vs communists and sympathisers, but nowadays there
is some sort of sympathetic connection from them to jihadis.

Currently still happening in Colombia. History of other South American
countries shows similar patterns.

D: Why r u calling THe Hindu as anti-national?

A: The Hindu is one of the champions of Ishrat Jahan which has
extensively published a number of lead articles, commentries,
editorials, and Headlines having a meaning that "an innocent secular
girl from Gujarat was murdered by communal Narendra Modi".... and she
was murdered with 3 other seculars cold-blooded.. The Hindu published
every allegation from the Ishrat Jahan's family or supporters of Ishrat
Jahan or paid activists like a Brahma Satya and wheneever there was a
counter-information.. The Hindu deliberately ignored it or published in
a very small space which was not more than "hiding" the information.....
I want to ask WHY this DRAMA?

C: The main reason would be anti-Modi propaganda. Nothing confusing
about it. They are not worried about BJP, just Modi.

B: she was kidnapped and murdered by a police force while not posing any
direct threat to anybody's life, not possessing any weapon or any proven
intent to bring harm to anyone. She's dead now so no way to really find
anything out... anyways do you really believe in derecognizing people as
human beings and flushing the Indian Constitution down the toilet in our
zest for nationalism then have it your way, I only hope that someone I
love one day doesn't disappear off, get murdered in cold blood and then
get branded by some CM's security force as a terrorist and a threat to
my country. I'm also seeing a lot of buried hatred for women manifesting
itself in this case nowadays.

A: B, was not she a terrorist? do u know that in India between 1970 &
2010 15,877 people had been killed in terrorist attacks.....24,195
people got wounded... didn't they have any human right? This number is
anyway far lower from reality as it is govt or media reported. Source
Global Terrorism database..

B: how many of those people were killed by Ishrat Jehan? Using these
words you could just about defend the killing of any woman or man in
this country. Someone troubling you? Shoot the bastard and then say
"terrorist! Did you know, 15k+ people have been killed in terrorist
attacks.. we must defend their human right!" Great, let's go around
kidnapping and killing young Muslim men & women randomly, that should
solve the problem. Nevermind the tiny little detail that far more people
have died of malnutrition & easily preventable diseases thanks to
pro-corporate & anti-grassroots policies in the same time period.

A: B, first answer my question....Was not Ishrat Jahan a terrorist? If a
lady is working for a terrorist organization, working with terrorists
then how is she a representative of all Indian Muslims??? How r u
connecting these two things.....

A: B, I appreciate ur concerns for malnutrition and other things but
why r u connecting both of these two things illogically? these 2 r
separate things and need separate treatment

B: yes, and similarly, Ishrat Jehan's killing and the real terrorist
threats facing India are also completely separate things. As for the
devils in the details.. here's something I found interesting... now
don't tell me you think even the Indian courts are terrorists and should
be executed without mercy...

B: i'm sorry if I brought up the feminine / muslim connection... it's
because i've observed that's what's being subconsciously targeted..
overall a dehumanization of people in the name of patriotism.

A: B, 1. was not #IshratJahan working with terrorists? 2. Why did Ghajwa
Times celebrated martyrdom of #IshratJahan? 3. Is this fake encounter
the only fake-encounter that has happened in Indian history? 4. IB & NIA
officials r fools or anti-people or anti-nationals?

A: B, nobody is dehumanizing people in the name of patriotism... it is
only sympathizers of terrorists who r dehumanizing people who r killed
by terrorists... these sympathizers r so blind that they strongly say

B: i'd like to give you a line : Rome did not fall because of external
attacks. It fell because the people of Rome forgot what being Roman
meant. Try to introspect what makes you an Indian.. is it coming out of
fear and hatred or out of love and compassion? out of showing no mercy
to your enemies or out of refusing to divide the world into enemies and
non-enemies? A young college girl was killed and her image, her memory
severely tarnished in this mess; would she have been killed off
silently, without getting a single chance to speak also, if she was
really guilty? Think, in whose best interests was she better off dead
than alive? The killers, the real enemies of this country, are walking
freely amongst us, waiting to ruin another life and brand it as 'enemy'
in order to stay in power.

A: B, instead of becoming too emotional for a terrorist.. pl show some
emotion for those who r killed by terrorists as well... pl show some
emotions for those who have been arrested by security forces while
beating the bush?

B: u idiot, she was only 19 yrs old! In most violence-riddled countries,
even if youngsters did get swayed by extremism, they're given a chance
to come back to live normal lives! My God, look at the unrelenting
hatred here! So what if terrorism does exist, no one denies that (except
people alleging people denying that like you). No one denies terrorism,
u get that? but that is no reason for murdering 19 year old kids god dammit!

A: Anti-nationals had always tried to ignore Islamic terrorism or
addressed it with vote bank in mind..... situations have become so much
worse that people r now openly supporting terrorists in constitution
club of India..... on the other hand, Khalistani terrorism has been
addressed by iron hand and an entire generation has been wiped out to
ensure a peaceful Punjab and it was a successful effort.. so were
efforts in Chechnya..... terrorism needs IRON HAND treatment

A: do terrorists kill people only above 25?? if no then why give
terrorists opportunities to recover? DO u know the concept of Rakhbeej?

B: was ishrat jehan a terrorist or not? I have nothing against you not
liking terrorists. Feel free to rant about them as much as your care..
whatever makes you happy, dude. BUT, are you justified in directing your
pain and anger towards someone who cannot be conclusively proven to be
an enemy of your country? she was an Indian citizen, baba. Have some
respect for the Constitution at least.

B: You know, it's by exploiting the grief and pain of Americans that
millions of innocent Iraqi men, women, children have been killed, a
whole country put into extreme despair. Do you think it's wise to allow
our corrupt politicians, their corporate masters and their in-pocket
media to exploit your pain and anger to kill 19 year old college students?

A: pl show some sympathy for people who r killed in terrorist
attacks.... and tell me that out of 17,300 terrorist attacks in India
between 1970-2010 how many have been resolved by Indian courts and
Indian laws? Constitution is a tool to get justice... not an instrument
to save terrorists & criminals.. think again

B: i have full sympathy for those killed in terrorist attacks. do you
have any sympathy for those killed in staged encounters?

A: why r u changing the topic of discussion.... talk only about
terrorism.... we will talk about others separately

A: I have no sympathy for terrorists/criminals whether they killed in
fake encounters or real. Laws or constitution r not meant to provide
security to offenders... it is a tool for justice.... More importantly,
I don't have any heart which sympathizes someone selectively depending
upon political position or compulsion.. sympathy is sympathy... no
politics in sympathy

B: would you block Ishrat Jehan's family members from getting justice
due to your sympathy for those killed in terrorist attacks? who gave you
the right to deny them their rights, to deny anyone the right to live,
based on your sympathy for people killed? i will ask you once again...
are you 100% certain that Ishrat Jehan was a terrorist? What is the
basis of your certainty? Can you prove what India's entire intelligence
establishment has failed to prove?

A: Ishrat Jahan was working with terrorists... it is sufficient to prove
that she was a terrorist... no need to wait for another attack

B: Who gets to decide whether the human being we killed in a fake
encounter was guilty of a crime that justified death penalty? The one
who pulls the trigger? Would you trust the policemen here with the
powers of judge, jury and executioner? Would you put the power of God in
the hands of people that you know are mired in corrupt practices?

B: I don't understand your religion-like faith in politicians and their
servants, yaar. You really treat them as a God if you claim that the
people they killed in fake encounter deserved to be killed that way. I
do not trust them. They might kill my loved one tomorrow. Will you go
around defending them then also?

A: family members of Ishrat Jahan has the right to seek justice but it
doesn't mean that u will put the officials involved in this process
behind bars.... in case of terrorists... it is the family members of
terrorists which need to prove that Ishrat was not a terrorist... not
the other way round

B: umm... any person who takes the powers of God in their hands... who
violated the basic tenets that govern all human beings in every culture
on this planet, ie, anyone who murders someone, is a threat to society
and belongs behind bars. Doesn't matter how many uniforms they wear.

A: I don't trust policemen or politicians... but if I have to chose b/w
terrorists & policemen.... I will go with policemen... what do u
want.... u want a terrorist attack conducted by Ishrat Jahan as the only
proof of her being a terrorist?

B: REALLY, you will put the burden of proving innocence on the shoulders
of the dead and their relatives? Wow, great Indian you are. You should
be the next PM. "Innocent until proven guilty" -- that one principle
that defends humans beings from being screwed by their governments
everywhere, just flushed down the toilet! Wah wah, isko kehte hain
democratic citizen

A: u r taking a specific case selectively [out of thousands of fake
encounters.. I don't know why?] and u r then speaking big things like
humanity or God or Justice?.... these things r at diff resolution levels..

B: No, i want India to stop making enemies, to make friends with fellow
human beings and hence to eliminate terrorism at its very root.

A: In case of terrorists... the Law must be GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN INNOCENT
because existing laws can't solve the problem of terrorism

B: 101 apologies, Sir. But you're the one who just laid the burden of
proving innocence on citizens rather than proving guilt on the state.
See where the value system has gone wrong? This is a textbook case of
extremism, of anti-human values.

A: no need to make friendship with terrorists... and do u know the root
of terrorism? or do want to know it? the root of terrorism lies in
monotheism... u know it very well.... can u talk about it openly.. no...
why? because of ur political preferences & position...

B: I would encourage you to tell everyone you know that you believe the
law should be "GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN INNOCENT", let's see how many friends
agree with you.

A: terrorism needs iron hand treatment.... do u know about things like
Foreigners Act... it assumes that a person is a foreign nation until
(s)he proves that he is a citizen... and this law is applicable worldwide

generalized this.... so put the entire statement.. do not put it selectively

B: no, sorry, I don't agree with that part u said about roots of
terrorism. Since 2001 after all I've seen, I've come to understand that
terrorism is a tactic used by those in power to grab more power. Kill
your own people, make them afraid, identify an enemy, position yourself
as their defender so that they become dependent on you, shower you with
fame, power and money. Very cheap tactic. more and more people waking up
to it now. you're among the late ones but you'll come around.

B: so who decides it's terrorism? Universal laws apply universally,
dude. No exceptions.

B: hey, this conv makes a great case for how people lose common human
values out of anger and fear. I'll anonymise you & share it... Thanks!

A: wait for some more points b4 u will publish this discussion.. in fact
I don't have any problem if u publish my name as well.. I stand by what
I stated.... roots of terrorism is the thought that "MINE IS THE TRUE
KILL U"..... i think u r not deliberately un-comprehending monotheism

B: oh yes that's a wonderful excuse. But the same religions do tend to
preach harmony and tolerance as well. Christians are the world's
greatest killers, by sheer weight of global statistics, at present,
whereas the corporate-controlled media likes blaming it all on Muslims.
Hinduism has a lot of extremist elements too.. have you read the Manu
Smriti, or checked out what we've been doing to our Dalits since
independence? Watch "Jai Bhim comrade" sometime! But we don't find that
being over-published so that's why the world doesn't brand Hinduism as
inherently racist, which I many times notice we are. Look at all those
fairness cream ads -- they would have been banned in any other
democratic nation. I tend to concentrate on facts rather than
assumptions... economics & power are playing a WAY greater role in
terrorism than the media would want you to know.

A: both Christians & Muslims have been the greatest destroyers of human
civilizations across the globe... how can one forget the gr8 tyranny
brought by both Muslim invaders & later Britishers... I have never
[except few cases] where gr8 civilizations of India or China have went
out for invading smaller countries.. do u know why? when there r large
many people and nature has endowed people with everything society
becomes civilized.... on the other hand... if population is smaller &
lacks natural endowments.. it becomes barbaric, terrorist.... and that
is the summary of Islam & Christianity and their confrontation with
India, China & South-East Asia

A: moreover.. have u seen any Buddhist or Hindu invader from India
killing people from other nations? NO a big NO. it doesn't mean that
Hinduism & Buddhism didn't spread... these ideas spread due to their
rationality and freedom to individual which they provided... this
completely lacks in monotheistic religions.. and it makes them the root
of terrorism.. even if u curb present Islamic terrorism or excesses of
US.. some other powers will emerge tomorrow out of this thought and will
start terrorizing the world again

B: alright, so.. if a person's religion happens to be on your personal
blacklist, then it's ok that they get kidnapped and killed by some cops
and then branded as terrorists but not be allowed to give any defense
for themselves? Doesn't that make you just another terrorist, targeting
people people because of the baggage against their religion that you carry?

A: I don't have any baggage against any religion or religious identity
of a person... I strongly feel that this idea: MINE IS THE TRUE PATH...
U" the root cause of terrorism and no mercy to people who follow
this idea... I don't have personalized lists... I will always stand for
humans.... not for those who do subscribe to the above idea

B: I have a personal stake in this. I was a teacher to 30+ muslim kids
for an year, and never even once did I observe any difference in
behaviour of theirs compared with the hindu kids in my class. These were
mostly slum children growing up in very violent neighborhoods. Even
their parents were very nice and peace-loving people. They absolutely
did not want their kids to do any jehadi thing, rather they wanted them
to have a happy, modern life free from any dogma. Rather, the Hindu
kids' parents used to instruct the kids not to share meals with the
Muslim kids, to distrust them etc. How many Indian Muslim friends do you
have, buddy? Do you know anyone? Their life story? Their dreams, their

A: I have many Muslim friends.. from my village.. at my college.. from
my schools... and I m again saying that I don't have any problem with
any individual.. rather I have problem with people who subscribe to this

A: and if any of my Muslim friends subscribe to this idea of monotheism
then I feel sorry about them.....

B: right... so I suppose your hatred for Ishrat is simply from seeing a
lot of people standing up for her while not standing up for others. Have
you ever considered that you ought to join the fray and stand for the
people who you feel are going unheard, instead of just being negative
and pulling down the justice movement of someone else's rights? Because
I've observed a lot of that in your posts... you seem to love hating
people who are standing up for someone's rights and not for the rights
of the people you feel someone should be standing up for.

B: don't you think that's a very negative position to take? As it is the
world's messed up... at least SOMEBODY is standing up for some people...
why pull them down and insult them, denigrate them, brand them as
traitors? Have you considered doing something more constructive, like
contacting those people and informing them about the cases you feel are
more pressing?

A: I don't have any hatred or sympathy with anyone... i only have my
position about my nation and people of my nation..... if anyone is
against India or Indians then that needs to b treated with IRON HAND

B: So whose voice are you trusting here? If your government told you one
day that B is a threat to the country, would you be a passionate
advocate of treating me with that iron hand? would you be ok if i was
kidnapped one day, taken to some secret location, killed and then the
government just declares, without any due process, any solid evidence,
that I was a terrorist? Would you believe a government that you know is
mired in corruption, if it told you some phalaana citizen is a
terrorist? Would you expect ANY accountability whatsoever, or would you
blindly trust some people in office?

B: What I'm trying to convey is : There are people in power who can make
millions out of FOOLING you into thinking this or that is the enemy and
should be dealt with iron hand. Would you trust them blindly?

A: I was a #pseudosecular till very recently... but after reading so
much about different ideas.. traveling to diff parts of the country and
meeting thousands of people.... I found that there are very few people
who stand for nation... they stand for particular religions.. particular
regions/castes/languages...or they have affiliation to particular
political ideologies or they r looking for a career...

B: Or would you exercise your responsibility as a citizen of the country
you love, to be vary of what authority tells you, and to not let them go
around killing people without any due process? Remember, many countries
have turned from democracy to dictatorship by kiling and branding people
as traitors or terrorists or whatevers this way.

B: nah, i'm not into appeasing any religions also. i also think they're
all very twisted and limit humans from reaching their potential. But
would you turn your love for your country into another RELIGION, with
blind faith in your govt and police?

A: I don't trust government.... in plain sense I am a strong
anti-government... hence I am working with government bodies in Kanpur
to change them... and further developing some technologies & services to
give more information & power to people.... and I further want these
technologies to b used across country.... that is my answer to ur question

B: great! Thanks! GN

A: I am again saying that I am not against the idea of GOD or
spirituality.. but I am strongly against the political character of any
religion and especially when people strongly subscribe to this idea of

B: Ya, even governments do that.. "This girl was a terrorist.. rest all
ppl saying anything are false... if u don't accept that, u are also
terrorist.. no mercy.. iron hand!" Religious extremism can be found
beyond the religious sphere also.

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